Hello all, This is my first post on the forum, but I have been an avid reader throughout my undergrad. I am currently working at the National Music Museum researching Trombones made by the Holton company (pre-leblanc era), and had a few questions for those that might know what was happening in the Holton company before 1963. So far I have created a list of all the trombones that Holton produced, or at least the ones that I have been able to find from 1907-1963 within the Holton Archives at the Museum, but I have hit a few snags within my research and after talking with a number of good sources I was wondering if anyone within the public has any knowledge of these questions. So I am posting here, maybe in vain, but something could happens. First off has anyone ever heard of Holton Model 410?

Does anyone own a model 410 or know a little about the history of the horn? I stumbled upon this instrument while in the archives and am working to catalogue one of them right now.

Model, Start #, End #. Rudy Wiedoeft Model, unknown, unknown. Elkhorn, unknown, unknown. Collegiate, unknown, unknown. Holton Serial Number Chart. Serial Number, Year Manufactured. Mar 10, 2010 - 2 min - Uploaded by worldofbrass2000FRANK HOLTON The Holton C602 Cornet Serial Number #458816 Available on: http.

Some interesting aspects of the horn include a bell seam running the length of the bell, rather than a single piece of spun brass as Holton advertised during the 30's. Also Holton used a number of interesting materials in the creation of the instrument which include: 'Flintelite', 'Nikro-bronze' (could just be a catch phrase), and 'Nickeline'. Ibanez Tube Screamer Ts10 Serial Number. Has anyone ever heard of these materials?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jun 11, 2012, 09:04AM. Since my last post I have found out more information about the 410. It was in a line of Student model trombones from 1934-1937 called 'Ideal'. A few sites talk about this line of instruments for Holton Trumpets and Cornets, the models 400 and 405. Although this was a short lived line of instruments because it was also competing with the 'Collegiate' line.

It seems that the company halted the line in 1938 as all records of the horns stop after that year. Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jun 11, 2012, 09:41AM. Also although this has been posted by other people in various forms here is a link to the 'Trip through the Holton Factory' brochure: Also here are a list of relevant patents as designed by Holton, accredited to the Holton Company or claimed to be a Holton design: 902,290 = 932,740 = 1,076,284 = 1,236,173 = 1,652,306 = 2,027,340 = Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jun 11, 2012, 02:09PM.

Next Question: I am currently cataloguing Holton trombones from the 1930's and have run into a Serial Number issue. I am following the Serial Number lists on holtonloyalist.com and the Allied Supply co. However, I have found two numbers that do not coincide with the lists, unless Holton marked their trombones with a different method. Maybe you can help. The first trombone with this issue had a serial number of 281 it was the holton Ideal No. 410 I was talking about earlier. The one I am currently working on is a Revelation from 1931-35, and its 'serial number' is 203.

Both trombones had the number stamped on the cork stop section of the hand assembly and also on the same side outer slide sheath. Does anyone know, if Holton marked their slides with only three digits during this time? Or are these two horns anomalies? Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: blast on Jun 11, 2012, 03:48PM. Next Question, I have found a reference to a strange material called 'Flintelite.' I am pretty sure this is a Holton original, though I cannot find its chemical composition anywhere (if only I had some high tech equiptment).

A Holton ad from 1923 talks about this material as being used in the inner slide rather than Nickeline (Ni 43.9%, Sn 56.1%), which was used between 1918-1923. It can be assumed that This 'Flintelite' was used until 1932 when ads started to proclaim Nickel Silver (Cu 65%, Zn 6-18%, Ni 16-20%, Pb 0-5%, Sn 0-4%) as the new best thing.

(In all likelihood the two materials are probably the same, but it was nice to say they had a new invention). However here is one modern day article that references 'Flintelite' (sorry its in German) Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: blast on Jun 12, 2012, 02:10PM. So were the slide build numbers tallied for each year? Some earlier models within the museum, specifically a Paul Whiteman model from 1929 has a full serial number of 102394.

However, stamped on the slide segment is 8810, is the 8810 the slide order number? Did Holton stomp stamping serial numbers on the trombones during the 30's? As far as I know, four figure numbering continued up to the Leblanc takeover. I have 169 slides that have 169 stamped, then four numbers on the hand grip with the last two repeated on the outer slide and the lock ring. In the Leblanc era they seemed to use a 1-10 simple rotation, perhaps indicating that they built slides in batches of ten then.

The model number was sometimes stamped on the outer slide brace in Leblanc times, but not pre-Leblanc. Chris Stearn Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jun 18, 2012, 11:44AM. Next piece of the puzzle: Some may already know this but Holton had different bore sizes for their advanced trombones. It is represented in a single digit number on the bell connection receiver (where the bell meets the slide).

The numbers I have found that are included within the Holton collection are 0, 1, 2 1/2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. (Though I have also found a 2 at the National music museum.) The numebrs go from small bore to large bore, but are all slightly different. Bell sizes also correlate to these numbers (the most common combination being a 7in bell with a size 3 or 4 bore). Really tiny horns (0, 1, 2) could have a 6 or 6 1/2 in bell. Where as a size 6, the largest bore size they made for tenor had an 8 1/2 in bell (could pass for a bass trombone by Holton's standards). So far the bore sizes I have found are as follows: 1=.445, 2=.441(may be different category for student line horns), 3=.448, paul whiteman 3=.471, 4=.476 Unfortunately the size 6 I am working on has been pieced together so the bore size of the mouthpiece receiver/ slide does not match the bore size of the bell.

So if anyone knows bore size for a size 6 Holton trombone your welcome to post! Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jun 18, 2012, 03:05PM. Download Free Prolapse The Italian Flag Rarest more.

I was going to talk about Holton Mouthpieces but I found a great series of posts on the forum that already talk about them. (However, I will update the knowledge base with what I've learned from the National Music Museums Holton Archives!) Here's the post: Here's added info: Holton mouthpieces first appear in the Holton Archives in 1921 and included (advanced): Holton Personal, Corey Model, Miller model, & Free tone; and (regular): No.1 (w/ revelation), No.40, No. T-15 (deep cup), No. 37, No.5 (pryor model, small cup and sharp angle), they could either be silver or gold plated. In 1939 the following mouthpieces appear: No.' S 80, 81, 82, 83 & 88.

These could be purchased at the time for $2 (silver) and $4 gold. The Price then jumps up from $4.50 (silver) and $8.50 (gold) in a 1941 price listing. Probably due to the War production boards restrictions on metal. Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jun 19, 2012, 11:01AM.

So far I have found some interesting choices of materials used within the Holton trombones. (I am working on finding formula's or percentages of the materials used, but it is very difficult to find this information)However, in some of the Trombones I have catalogued thus far, the really interesting materials seem to be located in the inner and outer slide. I have already mentioned a few of these materials (and have yet to find Flintelite), but Holton trombones from app. 1914-1923 have a very interesting feature: Phosphor Bronze stockings.

(pictures to come soon) I have found two examples of phosphor bronze stockings; one where the length of the stockings remains consistant all the way around the tube, and one where there is excess material (the excess forms a parabola-like shape towards the bottom of the bell side). Has anyone else seen other companies use phosphor bronze on the stockings, or was this just a Holton thing?

Also on Holton horns from 1934-? You can find Stainless Steel bearings on the inside of the outerslide. Was this something that is used frequently in the creation of slides? I dont think that this is a common process but I don't know for sure, any help? Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: JohnL on Jun 19, 2012, 06:31PM. Found two interesting instruments in the National Music Museum. A Holton Slide Cornet/ Soprano Trombone circa 1915-1923 and one from 1940.

Hopefully to hear more about these instruments soon. Here's a link to another picture of the horn: Also this: Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: lingon on Jun 24, 2012, 05:17AM. Yes actually: The first 'Symphony' appears in a catalogue from 1911. It was called the 'German Symphony Model' then, and was only offered in Low Pitch and Large bore, size 5 or 6 in Holton size system. Bell was polished brass with Nickel Silver trimmings, and could come with or without an F-attachment. The most interesting thing about Holton's first 'Bass Trombone' was that it had a detachable screw bell, something that was, I think, unique for 1911. In the 20's, the 'Symphony' Model only appears under the Holton 'Special' advertisements.

It is listed as a size 6, for professional bass trombone playing, and that it can come with either an F or E attachment, but not both. In 1932 the first Holton numbering system appears for the symphony models. 66, is a size 6 bass trombone with an 8 1/2in bell and no F-attachment. 68, is a size 6 bass trombone with an 8 1/2 in bell and an F-attachment. Early photos and drawings show that the mechanism used was most likely designed by Holton, it was a pull ring rotary valve.

During the late 30's into the late 40's when the Great Depression and World War II had both hit the company hard, the company only sold five models of trombones: 63, 65 (both tenors), 66, 68 (both basses), and 511 (the collegiate model). However, due to Executive order L-37 and L-37A no trombones were sold from the factory between 1942 and the wars end, really the Holton company struggled until 1949, when it was able to get a foothold in the market again. I will post an interesting article online about this, though all should read the research by Mrs. Richardson which can be found on pro-quest if you're at an institution of higher learning it is available for free. Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jun 25, 2012, 08:55AM. Here is the article: also you can find her thesis on pro-quest.

Very interesting. Holton, is as is mentioned in both the thesis and the article. What happened during World War II: The Holton company stopped producing trombones and all other instruments in May of 1942.

It instead aquired two government contracts to produce mortar shell primers and bomb fuses, both of which required machine lathes and screw production, which the Holton company had a wealth of experience doing already. It also received a contract to produce 50 trombones and app.

90 other instruments for the military (this was the only option available to instrument manufacturers who made primarilly brass instruments during the war; it was build for the government or make instruments out of plastic.) So if anyone finds a government stamped Holton trombone, I would very much like to see it. Anyway, the Holton company received two Army-Navy 'E' awards for wartime service to the military. At the cerimony and presentation of the awards, Elliott Kehl, the wartime president of the holton company gave a speach that spoke of survival of the Holton company and the will to keep manufacturing. As I said in the last post from about 1938-1949 the only trombones available were the following: 63, 65, 66, 68 and 511. It isn't until about 1948-1949 that the company picks up again, but with limited results, and only 14 years later they are bought out by the LeBlanc corporation, and after the buyout the once former glory never really returned, for trombones that is. Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jun 25, 2012, 09:14AM.

Restrictive order L-37, in a nutshell: It came to be known as the 10% rule. If a material required less than 10% of its total materials to come from the restricted materials list (which included copper, zinc, nickel), a manufacturer would then only be allowed to use 18.75% of the material that they used in the previous year. If it used between 10%-25% of critical materials by weight it now only could use 16.25% of materials used the previous year.

If an instrument required more than 25% of materials that came from the list it could now only use 12.5% of the materials. This means that if a company in 1941 produced 100 trombones, in 1942 it could now only produce 12 1/2 trombones in 1942, as trombones would fall in the last and most restrictive category. So companies could still build instruments during the war, but it was not cost effective, that is why the Holton company turned to government contracts to meet its needs. An amendment to the executive order came a little later, which prohibited the building of certain instruments, and another amendment L-37A, which said that those instruments could be built instead for the military, if you got a contract to do so.

Hence the 50 trombones made by the company during the war. So if you encounter a trombone with a serial number from the 1940's take it witha grain of salt, as it may have been made in the 30's or late 40's and had been part of the frozen stocks that the company held during the time, but finished in the 1950's or late 1940's when the company was switched back over to instrument manufacture, instead of wartime production. Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jun 25, 2012, 02:22PM. Holton in the Great Depression, (info from NMM Holton Archives): In 1934, Holton contacts his three major competetors, Martin, White [king], and York, to propose a trade of information.

Holton was struggling greatly with keeping the business afloat and was wondering how his competition was fairing. In a series of personal corespondances between Frank Holton, Fred Holtz (Martin), F.A Reynolds (VP at White), and Karl B.

Shinkman (VP at York), the four companies shared information on their past five years of sales 1929-1933. This 'collaboration,' I believe, was a way for Holton to postulate ways of recuperating funds lost from the great depression and the end of his primary business- vaudeville and radio musicians. From the correspondances one can see that sales of all four companies dropped each year at a steady rate. White(king) fared the best sell at just above half of their 1928 sales.

Holton was hit hardest selling only 14% of what they sold in 1928. If you look at sales figures from the Holton archive, you can see that Holton's focus was indeed shifted from producing top of the line professional instruments to producing student line horns right at this time. The solution to survive the depression was market to students and cut costs by manufacturing a cheaper and easier to build horn. In a sales report within the company from 1934-1936, sales of the Revelation and Special plummet, yet the Collegiate Line flourishes, relatively speaking. I believe it was this in combination with previous stated info on Restrictive Measure L-37 that caused the company to fall from a great maker of trombones in the 20's to a name we hardly remember as trombone players. To keep the company alive the 'Holton company had to make tough sacrifices that undermined their renown for quality and craftsmanship.

Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jun 29, 2012, 07:43AM. Thanks for the interesting facts.

As a curiosity, there was one 1912 Holton bass trombone on eBay about 2006 or something. If I had only known how the bay worked back then.

As I remember it looked very much like a German trombone, no screw bell though from what I recall. I think there are now four Symphony models at Horn-u-copia, one without attachment, two with F valve and one with 2 valves where the 2nd valve is a 'stellventil' (what's that in English?) to put the attachment in F or E. The one valved instruments has the special ring lever for the valve. Two of the instruments also interestingly seems to have tuning in the slide. At least the one without valve has an 8 in. Bell with a really large bell throat as a 'modern' bass trombones and sounds very like a German Posaune.

Yes actually: The first 'Symphony' appears in a catalogue from 1911. It was called the 'German Symphony Model' then, and was only offered in Low Pitch and Large bore, size 5 or 6 in Holton size system. Bell was polished brass with Nickel Silver trimmings, and could come with or without an F-attachment.

The most interesting thing about Holton's first 'Bass Trombone' was that it had a detachable screw bell, something that was, I think, unique for 1911. In the 20's, the 'Symphony' Model only appears under the Holton 'Special' advertisements. It is listed as a size 6, for professional bass trombone playing, and that it can come with either an F or E attachment, but not both. In 1932 the first Holton numbering system appears for the symphony models. 66, is a size 6 bass trombone with an 8 1/2in bell and no F-attachment. 68, is a size 6 bass trombone with an 8 1/2 in bell and an F-attachment. Early photos and drawings show that the mechanism used was most likely designed by Holton, it was a pull ring rotary valve.

During the late 30's into the late 40's when the Great Depression and World War II had both hit the company hard, the company only sold five models of trombones: 63, 65 (both tenors), 66, 68 (both basses), and 511 (the collegiate model). However, due to Executive order L-37 and L-37A no trombones were sold from the factory between 1942 and the wars end, really the Holton company struggled until 1949, when it was able to get a foothold in the market again. I will post an interesting article online about this, though all should read the research by Mrs. Richardson which can be found on pro-quest if you're at an institution of higher learning it is available for free.

Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: BGuttman on Jul 01, 2012, 03:07AM. I think what you are referring to as 'stilventil' we would call 'manual'. There is no lever, you switch the rotor manually and it stays in whatever position you chose.I think the term 'static valve' is more accurate (both as a translation and as a description). You see valves like that on some vintage 'dual-key' instruments such as mellophones in F and Eb and trumpets in Bb and A. One the mellos, the valve is normally in the main tuning slide crook; on the trumpets, it's located just in front of the main valve cluster.

Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jul 06, 2012, 01:11PM. Found another Ideal Model trombone and more about the Ideal line of student instruments.

The Ideal Line came out in the mid 30's as an intermediate line of instruments, in between the Revelation and Collegiate models sales were much lower than the collegiate line so they dropped the line just before WWII. However, when things began to pick up again after the war and and the Holton company was on solid ground once more they decided to continue the line, only this time the collegiates were now much better in design so the Ideal dropped down to third best.

Also they decided to continue it as a line made by Holton but without the Holton name attached. The Model No. 710 trombone was the result. It only appears, as far as I can see, from Fall 1949 to Spring of 1950 when the line was perminantly discontinued.

Such a sort time may suggest that it was a trombone that only existed on paper and never came to life in brass. More to come soon.

I just found out a bunch of info on the effects of the Korean War! Also found some early trombone pictures of players advertising Holton's including the Chicago Brass ensemble, Boston Symphony Orchestra, New York Symphony (I dont think Philharmonic but another), and many jazz musicians. Post pictures soon Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jul 09, 2012, 11:47AM. Thanks for posting this. The AD did say it was amber in color, but I didn't realize it was would be that vivid.

Holton was not the first company to try making plastic mouthpieces. I know they are preceded by at least the following companies: The Chicago Musical Instrument Company (made plastic bugles made of Tenite II), The Trophy Products Company (bugles and other novelties made of plastic), and most likely Conn which started to delve into this market after the war (to name a few). Holton only began producing plastic mouthpieces when materials were once again cut during the Korean War. Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jul 16, 2012, 02:02PM. Holton's MPBP Union involvement: Holton became involved with the Metal Polishers, Buffers, and Platers International Union in 1912, while it was still in Chicago. In 1917, along with most of the major band instrument manufacturers, Holton disbanded with the union in favor of setting their own prices for wages.

This was most likely due to two reasons: 1.) the Company was moving to Elkhorn where a local union of this sort did not exist and 2.) the advent of WWI greatly increased the demand for new instruments for the military (which the company may not have been able to capitalize on the new contracts with a union in place) What this means for trombones. Instruments made by Holton, most likely between the years 1912 and 1915(-1917?) [Holton could not agree with the union and had been in a struggle with them for two years hence the question of end dates] will have a union stamp somewhere on the instrument. I found one on the bell connection receiver of a trombone and wondered what it meant so here's my research for the day! Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Jul 27, 2012, 07:28AM.

So I came across an interesting stamp the other day cataloguing trombones. I found three different letters stamped on three different trombones from 1914-1917. One is stamped 'C', the next 'B' and another 'E'. I originally thought them to be finishes, as this was the only Holton cataloguing system, that I know of from early Holton, to use letters. But two of the letters didn't correspond with the finishes seen in the those trombones. For instance the one marked 'B', if following this hypothosis, should have been a sand-blasted silver finish but instead was highly burnished (In reality Finish C).

The one marked 'C' should have been highly burnished silver but was instead sand blasted with a gold bell (In reality finish E). I either have two incorrectly marked trombones, if the letter corresponds with finish, or the letter means something else entirely. Has anyone encountered a trombone from around the Union Label time period with a letter stamp?

It would be located above the serial number on the bell connection receiver. Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: danbo on Jul 31, 2012, 06:32PM.

There's a Holton B65 on ebay right now. I'm wondering what the B in front of the 65 stands for?

The B is a brief letter system that lasted for only a few years. It started in 1961 when the company came out with the Galaxy model trombone, which added a letter to their numbering system for their models. The Galaxy at that time was listed as Model G-66. But some time in the mid 60's, apparently before I thought it to begin (according to the serial number presented on ebay)the Holton company changed its lettering of trombones to a 'B.' I mention the galaxy even though this trombone is not a galaxy because this was one of the key instrument models to first start catagorizing instruments usuing a letter system. This is sometime in between 1962 and 1963 When the company was purchased by the LeBlanc corporation in 1964, there were talks of changing the lettering system once again, and all of the trombones were then changed completely. So instead of the cataloguing system of the letter 'b' it became a 'd,' and most of the numbers were changed as well.

Below is an outline of the changes; however the 65 was essentially the Holton special. In 1960, the company began making their professional level trombones with rose brass bells, which is featured in this trombone. The trombone on ebay would be from 1962. The slide looks in rough shape with the chrome plating, but the bell looks really nice. The case seems to be original and look in good condition as well. Here as promised is the change in numbers: Trombone reference letter= D; Model #'s 100= Symphony, 200=Stratodyne, 300= Revelation, 400= Galaxy, 500= Special, 600= Collegiate Tenors: No.69= 100, 110 (w/ valve), 115 (w/ Fatt.); No.67= 200; No.65= 300; No.B66= 400, 500 (special Hurt?); No.513= 600 Bass trombones: No.169= 180; No.168= 280; No.166= 380; No.517= 580 (special Hurt?); No.519= 680 Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Aug 01, 2012, 08:55AM.

The B is a brief letter system that lasted for only a few years. It started in 1961 when the company came out with the Galaxy model trombone, which added a letter to their numbering system for their models. The Galaxy at that time was listed as Model G-66. But some time in the mid 60's, apparently before I thought it to begin (according to the serial number presented on ebay)the Holton company changed its lettering of trombones to a 'B.' I mention the galaxy even though this trombone is not a galaxy because this was one of the key instrument models to first start catagorizing instruments usuing a letter system. This is sometime in between 1962 and 1963 When the company was purchased by the LeBlanc corporation in 1964, there were talks of changing the lettering system once again, and all of the trombones were then changed completely.

So instead of the cataloguing system of the letter 'b' it became a 'd,' and most of the numbers were changed as well. Below is an outline of the changes; however the 65 was essentially the Holton special. In 1960, the company began making their professional level trombones with rose brass bells, which is featured in this trombone. The trombone on ebay would be from 1962.

The slide looks in rough shape with the chrome plating, but the bell looks really nice. The case seems to be original and look in good condition as well. Here as promised is the change in numbers: Trombone reference letter= D; Model #'s 100= Symphony, 200=Stratodyne, 300= Revelation, 400= Galaxy, 500= Special, 600= Collegiate Tenors: No.69= 100, 110 (w/ valve), 115 (w/ Fatt.); No.67= 200; No.65= 300; No.B66= 400, 500 (special Hurt?); No.513= 600 Bass trombones: No.169= 180; No.168= 280; No.166= 380; No.517= 580 (special Hurt?); No.519= 680 Your lettering and number changes are not correct for basses.the whole thing is pretty complex there.The 169 is not the same as the 185. There was an E185 before all went to TR numbers. Before TR numbers there was just the 169 and some proto 269 models. The 269 did not make it to production. There were some transitional E185 basses.

With the TR numbers you got the TR 180 (double 9 1/2' bell) TR185 single 9 1/2' bell. Soon the TR180 was 10' bell standard with Glantz trigger and the TR185 was 9 1/2' or 10' bell. The TR183 came next which was the George Roberts model, and quite different from the others, though the first few seem to be re-stamped TR185 models.

When the TR181 came out the TR 180 and TR183 continued alongside and a screw bell 281 joined the line-up. Never seen a 280, but it could have happened. Chris Stearn Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: Vintage88H on Aug 01, 2012, 11:15AM.

Here as promised is the change in numbers: Trombone reference letter= D; Model #'s 100= Symphony, 200=Stratodyne, 300= Revelation, 400= Galaxy, 500= Special, 600= Collegiate Tenors: No.69= 100, 110 (w/ valve), 115 (w/ Fatt.); No.67= 200; No.65= 300; No.B66= 400, 500 (special Hurt?); No.513= 600 Bass trombones: No.169= 180; No.168= 280; No.166= 380; No.517= 580 (special Hurt?); No.519= 680 As i know the 168 became the TR150. I also know a E150 which is similiar to the TR150. And a E155 which is a straight version of the TR150/E150. Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: nolard12 on Aug 02, 2012, 01:53PM. Your lettering and number changes are not correct for basses.the whole thing is pretty complex there.The 169 is not the same as the 185.

There was an E185 before all went to TR numbers. Before TR numbers there was just the 169 and some proto 269 models. The 269 did not make it to production.

There were some transitional E185 basses. With the TR numbers you got the TR 180 (double 9 1/2' bell) TR185 single 9 1/2' bell.

Soon the TR180 was 10' bell standard with Glantz trigger and the TR185 was 9 1/2' or 10' bell. The TR183 came next which was the George Roberts model, and quite different from the others, though the first few seem to be re-stamped TR185 models. When the TR181 came out the TR 180 and TR183 continued alongside and a screw bell 281 joined the line-up. Never seen a 280, but it could have happened.

This is good to know, as I said before, my knowledge past 1963 is hazy at best, I took all of my information from a file within the National Music Museum taken from the Holton company. I took a second look at the file and found what I printed was the proposed number system before the company became an entity of Leblanc, I couldn't say whether or not they ended up going with this system; however, if my bass trombone numbers are incorrect then it is obvious that they did not. I know the 'B' and the 'G' system definately were in existence, but at what extent (say if all trombones were stamped or engraved with a B or G) I dont know. I have seen the 'TR' labels, but I don't know much about the trombone labeling system after 1964. This would be a good place for someone else to come and explore or for me to look into at another time. So after 1964, did the Holton company use the 'TR' lettering system for all of its trombones, or just the basses? What about the numbering system?

Title: Re: Compiling History of Holton Post by: stroodles on Apr 08, 2013, 11:56AM. Just found this thread. I have a slide cornet / soprano trombone you referenced on the first page. I don't have any information on it, but I would be happy to send you some pictures if you are interested. If you are interested in some pictures send me an email - struzick at gmail dot com and I can send you what I have. I would be interested to know any history you have of Holton making the soprano trombone.

There really isn't any information that I have found using Google, but I haven't tried too hard either. The only other one I have found on the internet is on horn-u-copia.